Been doing this for about 3 years now. I'm currently remixing my old album in order for them to be the same quality as my newer ones. The main difference from those ones made back then and the newest ones are obviously, the volume. Ensuring each song, as you're mixing it, is as loud as the last is a very VERY hard thing to do. (I can't afford to have them mastered so that's out of the question. My priority should be focused now on producing the best mix possible.) There may be 20 of these threads but I think this one is a little different.... hopefully.

..So here's the question for anyone's who has ever had to deal with something like this. Do you chose to make all your old songs as loud as the new ones or vice versa? Is there a way to ensure they're all the same volume (as in the difference between peak loudness vs. sustained volume)?

And perhaps most importantly how loud is TOO loud for most styles of music? Can there ever be such a thing? The last thing I want is for my album to be another casualty of the loudness war!

Please share your thoughts

There is a way to have your tracks the same volume. The first thing you want to do is mix your song. People mix differently, but my way is to start with the kick. I mute everything else and have my kick hitting around -15 db. ( You might have to turn up your computer volume if its too low for you to hear NOT the FL studio volume ). You should start your mix that low of db because when you add your other sounds in with the kick your track will get louder and closer to 0 db.

When you are done with your mix you want to put a parametric eq on the Master Track to give it that final touch (if neccessary), whether its boosting highs to give it a lil more presence or boosting low to give a little more thump.

After that you want to put a Limiter on your Master Track. This should be the last thing you should use on your track. This is also what you need to use to boost your track's volume. Lets say you started your mix at -15 db then after you added the rest of your sounds in the mix it was hitting at -9 db. That Limiter you put on the Master Track will boost the volume (db) to however loud you want it.

How loud is too loud?
You don't want your track to hit over 0 db and go into the red where +1 db and +2 db is. Its called clipping and it'll make your mix sound ugly. So 0 db is where you want it hitting around.

I use Izotope's Limiter but I'll use Fruity Limiter to explain what you should focus on while using it. There is a knob called "Ceil". It means cealing (its called margin db in izotope). You adjust that knob to a db where you dont want your track to go over ( you want 0 or -0.1 db ). Then look at the "Gain Knob". Turn this knob up and listen to your track get louder. Also its important to look at the db its hitting at while you crank it up. You can turn it all the way up and notice that it never goes pass your 0 db celiing. Don't crank up all the way though lol. Turn it up till you see the meter bouncing up and down on the ceiling db. Don't make it where its constantly lit up to the ceiling without dropping because the track will begin to sound saturated and ugly.

I don't know if you knew any of that stuff but I'm sure someone who didn't know will find it useful. ok bye

well I'm glad you posted all that, even though i knew most of it, because it will definitely help SOMEONE out there.
i always hear people saying you should mix the song at a low volume...
but why?

if you can just limit it or lower the master fader to stop any clipping... in the past i made all my songs at 0dB and used fruity limiter (both two mistakes i won't repeat). that wasn't exactly "good" because then it lacked dynamics, WOULD clip and would be distorted by the limiter. I got better limiters now, and my songs don't go past -0.8 to 1dB AND they sound louder (too loud almost) then the old songs.

Can anyone explain how that works? And what is the difference in 0db to -0.x dB?

u should mix the songs @ low volume for a few reasons.

you'll be able to really hear when things are sticking out in a mix. did you know your ears are natural LIMITERS?? if you keep had an infinite volume knob, even though you may have a clap thats super loud, once you get to a certain volume, everything seems to be at the same level. but if you turn it down, you can HEAR that the clap might be super loud in relation to the rest of the track. Also ear fatigue is a major factor. Also, after mixing for a while, your ears become too accustomed to high frequencies (remember that natural limiter i was telling you about) so most of the time, you tend to turn the highs down in a mix.

As far as your songs all being the same volume, you don't want to concentrate on the peak volume as much, rather the RMS volume of your tracks. you can have an instrument peak @ 0 db, but the rms on the track may only be -20db. overall, thats a quiet track. another thing to keep in mind is the dynamic range of your track. folks wonder why their kicks and snares aren't sticking out, it's b/c they've squashed the track so much to get it peaking @ 0db, they fail to realize that EVERYTHING is near 0db.

there isn't much difference between 0db and 0.x db, however, some systems (for one reason or the other, may let some peaks through...so some people set their ceiling just a tad lower than 0db.

That post was for me Pompey, lol, thanks so much!

How can I tell what the RMS is? one of my plugins can limit using peak limiting and RMS limiting - but I'm not exactly sure how it works and the manual only tells me that RMS limiting has been covered in various other manuals lol

I use soundforge. It analyzes the waveform for me. I don't actually do it with a plugin though. I'm sure there are some that will tell you though. voxengo span will tell you the rms too...and it's a spectrum analyzer.

Does anybody know of a standalone (program that doesn't need a host) RMS meter? That is free? I know of one from RK (whatever the name was) that I used once, but I didn't really like it plus their company is a little iffy.

I think what I really need to do at this point is increasing the RMS, not the PEAK volume because if you peak but it's not actually loud that's not good for me.

In fact I just made two songs - one is extremely loud with no effects at all (and the instruments are completely synth) and one with a sample of a piano, I can't get it loud at all. What I'm trying to understand is, why does this happen on some days and not on others? Why are synths so easy to make loud but recordings need so much enhancement to be half as loud?

Posted By KrypToKnight Beatz on 06 Jul 2011 01:08 AM
There is a way to have your tracks the same volume. The first thing you want to do is mix your song. People mix differently, but my way is to start with the kick. I mute everything else and have my kick hitting around -15 db. ( You might have to turn up your computer volume if its too low for you to hear NOT the FL studio volume ). You should start your mix that low of db because when you add your other sounds in with the kick your track will get louder and closer to 0 db.

Oh and BTW I tried this, when you try to boost the volume through limiting all you get is pumping noises. It's ugly. But this is apparently how all the "pros" work and there's never any of those sounds in commercial tracks. How come?

I dont get pumping noises when I do it. Neither does some of the other producers I know who mix and use limiters get that. If you don't understand the limiter and you don't know what to do and listen for then yea its going to sound like crap. If your song is hitting over the threshold you will get that pumping noise and drowned out sound because its squashing the track to stay at that level. If its not hitting over the threshold then you need to go back and check your mix because the limiter just brings your levels up, but it sounds to me that your getting that pumping sound because of your limiter settings.

Well yeah that's kinda what I've been trying say lol ;P I don't understand RMS or what I'm even supposed to be focused on when using a RMS meter/limiter!

I just want all the sounds and the songs as a whole to be the same level. Can anyone tell me how to do it? (and just in case anyone needs to know, I use a limiter called Barricade Pro which is both a peak and RMS limiter plus with the Katz system!)

Speaking of which, how can you get meters to tell if your song is x RMS? All the ones I've seen are either these graphs or they're just VU styled needles. I need to know what the exact number of the song is like the way you guys can say "-20db RMS". I've used PSP's VintageMeter, Voxengo SPAN and all of Jeroen's plugins which are limiters that control peak and rms. Still after reading the manuals, I don't understand RMS.

I'm not if I will at this point....

rms is basically the avg loudness of your track. if your highest point is 0db and your lowest point is -6db throughout the entire song, your rms db is going to be -3db.

the possible reason you are getting that pumping sound is possibly for a couple of reasons.
1. your dynamic range in the song is already possibly at a minimum (the range between your highest peaks and your lowest)
2. your threshhold is too low and your release is too long.

you want to use the limiter to tame the peaks just enough.

i urge you to look up the Bob Katz k-metering system and do some research on that. u don't need to read the manuals to understand rms, just google it first. more than likely, the manuals are just going to tell you how to read them on the plugin you are using.

the trick is to keep dynamic range while boosting the entire song up. once again, look up the k-metering system.

but it seems like what you need to focus more on is consistent mixing. leveling things out across the board in a consistent manner.
i usually mix the drums and percussions first, then vocals, then i'll bring the instruments up around that....then make little tweaks here and there as i see fit. also different instruments will have different mixing styles for them. you won't mix a piano the say way you would a synth b/c a piano is going to have more dynamic range to give it feeling. some notes are played softer than others. with a synth, most of the notes are going to be played at the same velocity and same volume all the way through.

Posted By Pompey Productions on 25 Jul 2011 09:51 PM
rms is basically the avg loudness of your track. if your highest point is 0db and your lowest point is -6db throughout the entire song, your rms db is going to be -3db.

That kinda makes sense.

the possible reason you are getting that pumping sound is possibly for a couple of reasons.
1. your dynamic range in the song is already possibly at a minimum (the range between your highest peaks and your lowest)
2. your threshhold is too low and your release is too long.

you want to use the limiter to tame the peaks just enough.

 

That was more informative and I kind of fixed it on my own. Now I created a "mastering" project file with just the plugins like limiters and the meters. After trying to mix at low volume and then using a limiter to maximize the volume you DO notice that ease...

i urge you to look up the Bob Katz k-metering system and do some research on that. u don't need to read the manuals to understand rms, just google it first. more than likely, the manuals are just going to tell you how to read them on the plugin you are using.

I already knew about Katz and his system - they're more like guidelines and more idealistic than realistic considering how loud modern music IS compared to how it should be (accourding to him) and the way it used to be 15-20 years ago. Which helps me even less because I don't know how to apply his system to what I'm doing. I mean Barricade has a K-meter but I don't understand what that actually MEANS visually. Same thing with a VU meter, it keeps staying on the red and bouncing around but I don't really understand how that will help me get all my songs to making all the songs the same volume, which is what I WANT.

with a k-meter what you are looking for is the difference between the part that peaks..and the part that is green...THAT shows you how much dynamic range you have.

it may seem more idealistic, but try it. i've gotten mixes between 12-14db of dynamic range while maintaining -13 to -11 db RMS. thats PRETTY loud...and about what you are going to get in a commercial cd. as i stated, its more on the mix side.

and when i say you want to mix at lower volumes, i'm not specifically saying that you should turn all the instruments down..but turn down your SYSTEM.

the key is to get the RMS of your songs the same. THATS what you want. thats why the k system is important. you want to have the same amount of dynamic range in your tracks...(which is the difference between the peak and and lows)...so if the dynamic range is the same THEN...the RMS (which is the avg between the peaks and the lows) will be in the same area EVERY TIME....get it?

then if you want them to get LOUDER...u slap a limiter on it..and bring down the threshhold..and if your songs are now in the same area as far as the RMS is concerned, if you bring down the threshhold 2db on one track...and do it on another...then the tracks are STILL at the same volume

Posted By Pompey Productions on 25 Jul 2011 11:16 PM
with a k-meter what you are looking for is the difference between the part that peaks..and the part that is green...THAT shows you how much dynamic range you have.

it may seem more idealistic, but try it. i've gotten mixes between 12-14db of dynamic range while maintaining -13 to -11 db RMS. thats PRETTY loud...and about what you are going to get in a commercial cd. as i stated, its more on the mix side.

I have a song which I'm trying to get all of them like and it is -12 dB RMS. I was able to get another to that level (and btw I did find out how to read the meter on Barricade in order to know that just a few hours ago haha). But it did not SOUND like the same level, despite the readings.

and when i say you want to mix at lower volumes, i'm not specifically saying that you should turn all the instruments down..but turn down your SYSTEM.

Oh... well I did both - lowered my speakers AND instruments lol it's not bad or am I doing that wrong?

the key is to get the RMS of your songs the same. THATS what you want. thats why the k system is important. you want to have the same amount of dynamic range in your tracks...(which is the difference between the peak and and lows)...so if the dynamic range is the same THEN...the RMS (which is the avg between the peaks and the lows) will be in the same area EVERY TIME....get it?

That's easier said than done, Pompey. Do you have any tips?

of course it's easier said than done. mixing isn't easy my friend. it takes practice. this stuff wasn't done overnight.


as far as mixing at lower volumes and having your instruments at lower volumes:
when your MIX is done, generally u want it peaking between -6db and -3db (some make it even lower)...but the key is to get your mix around that area. this leaves you some headroom for the mastering phase. this pertains to how loud you have your instruments

you don't want your system to be too loud when mixing because:
1. your ears are precious..and the number 1 piece of equipment you have in mixing. once you damage your ears, there is no return
2. your ears are natural limiters. once you have volume up to a specific level, the high peaks don't get louder, only the lower parts do. so you can't hear actually what the music is doing correctly.
3. when you lower the volume you can hear things clearly and listen to where they sit in the mix better. you can tell when things stick out like a sore thumb a lot easier when the volume is lower.
4. if it sounds good at low volumes, it'll definitely sound good when you turn it up!

Every sound is different...so even if they are the same volume, they will sound different. the only way to ensure that it sounds the same every time is to use the same instruments everytime in the same sequence at the same volume.

The last tip i can give you is PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE. Understand that commercial recordings are NOT mastered with a couple of plugins and then slapped on a disc and sent out for major distribution. and contrary to popular belief, a lot of producers online won't give out their "methods" b/c it's their SOUND. it's what separates THEM from other producers/beatmakers whatever. there is so much more to the mastering phase than just a few plugins and watching the db meters...but this is where you start. focus on mixing your songs to get them about the same level FIRST...then worry about making them LOUD.

Posted By Pompey Productions on 26 Jul 2011 04:44 PM
of course it's easier said than done. mixing isn't easy my friend. it takes practice. this stuff wasn't done overnight.

actually, thanks to your advice i was able to get 6 or 7 of my songs at the same level by working on them overnight. went to bed at 6AM after like 20 hours of production. thanks for your help!

you don't want your system to be too loud when mixing because:
1. your ears are precious..and the number 1 piece of equipment you have in mixing. once you damage your ears, there is no return
2. your ears are natural limiters. once you have volume up to a specific level, the high peaks don't get louder, only the lower parts do. so you can't hear actually what the music is doing correctly.
3. when you lower the volume you can hear things clearly and listen to where they sit in the mix better. you can tell when things stick out like a sore thumb a lot easier when the volume is lower.
4. if it sounds good at low volumes, it'll definitely sound good when you turn it up!

Every sound is different...so even if they are the same volume, they will sound different. the only way to ensure that it sounds the same every time is to use the same instruments everytime in the same sequence at the same volume.

I WILL keep this in mind!

The last tip i can give you is PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE. Understand that commercial recordings are NOT mastered with a couple of plugins and then slapped on a disc and sent out for major distribution. and contrary to popular belief, a lot of producers online won't give out their "methods" b/c it's their SOUND. it's what separates THEM from other producers/beatmakers whatever. there is so much more to the mastering phase than just a few plugins and watching the db meters...but this is where you start. focus on mixing your songs to get them about the same level FIRST...then worry about making them LOUD.

WORD UP. this is real meat for everyone out there. anyway i was never a big fan of crushing my work to death so commercial loudness = never been "the goal". loud enough is.

lol just check my signature ;P

glad i could assist. and just keep up the good work. oh, and as far as the 20 hrs thing...make sure to let ya ears rest a lil bit too. lol.